The Brutal Truth About Bitcoin That Saylor Won’t Tell You | Jeff Booth (English)

We live in a manipulated economic framework where central banks expand monetary units to suppress natural, technology-driven deflation and keep an insolvent global debt structure alive. In this episode, I sit down with Jeff Booth, author of "The Price of Tomorrow" and managing partner at Ego Death Capital, to break down why true free markets require falling prices, how AI accelerates this shift, and why the current banking system relies on surveillance and control to survive. We dive deep into his debate with Michael Saylor regarding the illusion of digital credit, the corporate attack on digital assets, the inevitability of a systemic fork between fiat mindsets and sovereign protocol rules, and why a committed minority running independent nodes will ultimately secure absolute individual liberty.  

- Ego Death Capital: https://egodeath.capital/
- Jeffs' Website: https://www.jeffbooth.ca/
- Jeff on x: https://x.com/JeffBooth
- Jeff on Nostr: npub1s05p3ha7en49dv8429tkk07nnfa9pcwczkf5x5qrdraqshxdje9sq6eyhe

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back to Vast Bitcoin Blue Bitcoin Podcast from Prague this time, presented by Confinity. You can hear I'm tweaking to English today because I'm talking to none other than Jeff Booth by Jeff.

SPEAKER_02 0:09

Great to see you.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Great to see you, Jeff. Many years ago we did an interview that has a lot of views on YouTube. Um, Jeff Booth is one of the most original thinkers in Bitcoin. There's no point in introducing any of the concepts that we talk about now. But if you are a Bitcoiner, if you're interested in anything positive happening in the world, you need to listen to this conversation. It's absolutely blown me away, and let's go. Welcome back to what Bitcoin brings, author of The Prize of Tomorrow, managing partner and um founder of EcoDeath Capital, right? Correct. Great to see you again. It's been a long time, Nico. It's been a while. It's been a while. You were the first video podcaster ever did. Um, and we're up to almost a million views on that one, but it's not on my channel. Jeff, uh let's just you know jump right in. Um there's so much going on right now. It's a bear market, there is um treasury company trouble, there is AI, there's the quantum threat. It all feels like you know, Bitcoin and the core idea is totally buried or confused right now. Is it still there? Yeah, it's still 100% there.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

It's the um yeah, it's it's it's happening remarkably fast, too. An analogy would be um an analogy from kind of my hip background is I remember in 1999, 2000, the internet uh bubble collapsed, all of the uh dot-coms collapsed and everything else. And I had a company that was kind of alive at that time, pre-revenue. And and so I remember watching the adoption of the internet going straight up to the right, and then everybody talking about the internet being dead at the same time. And so it was a pricing function, but it was had nothing to do with adoption. And I think we're seeing the exact same thing in uh in Bitcoin today. Now that could feel like, if you're on Twitter all day, that could feel like Bitcoin's being captured by uh by by a centralizing force because most people are measuring Bitcoin in price go up. So they're measuring in, we can go into that deeper if you'd like to. But that would naturally feel like it's being, it doesn't feel like the same Bitcoin anymore. But that's also creating a reflexive action for hardcore Bitcoiners who know the sovereignty, what this means, how it's changing the world, to move somewhere else. And so you're seeing this in um they're just a lot of those people are moving from those centralized things and just paying no attention to it, and they're building something very different that's emergent, that is very different from what we're talking about. But if you're in the fray of all the nonsense and you're contributing in the fray of all the all the nonsense from the system that you know is debasing, what does it say about you?

SPEAKER_00 3:06

I mean, if as a podcaster, it's not easy to just stay away from it, but uh I mean the it w if you say centralizing force, so it's what is happening on Wall Street, ETFs, treasury companies, is that a centralizing force? It has to be.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

And so let's go into this. This is what our first podcast that you talked about. I said the same thing that I'm saying now. Um I've said for six, seven years. The natural state of the free market is deflation. Productivity flows in a free market to all humans. Prices fall. Why? Because we use the things that give us more value. So we're both a can we're both the creator of the market. We compete with what was there before to create new things, and we're the user of goods and services in the market, and we only use things that give us more value. The output of what I just described has to be deflation. And and so so what it means is we've never lived in a free market. So because we've never seen prices fall over and over and over again, where more people, the adding more people to that equation means more ideas competing against each other, means prices fall faster. Add AI to that equation, productivity goes faster, prices fall faster. But we've never seen it. So it would be really easy to get captured by a system that you believe prices go up. So why do prices go up? In general.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

In general. Well, that's what I wanted to ask you. Why is why is my the why is there a problem with the affordability of housing, for example?

SPEAKER_02 4:44

So there's only one reason prices go up. Only one, right? In any longer term, because the free market is deflation, prices go down, period.

unknown 4:52

Right?

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Um verifiable truth, you can know that. Also, verifiable truth for that is you've never lived in that, so you have no mental model for what I just described. You've always lived in the opposite system. You've always lived and measured, and all of your history books are in the opposite system, that that what ends up happening is money is cheated, right? And prices rise because money is cheated. If you're measuring things, goods and services, from money that's creating infinite money, prices will rise according to that money. And so what um, and that's the only reason prices go up, because you don't live in a free market, you live in a manipulated market.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

I mean, Hayek, if he would be sitting right here, he would say, Jeff, you're absolutely right. But I can give you 600,000 economists that would tell you deflation is bad, prices need to go up.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

So what but why are they saying that? Because they're saying that 600,000 economists have been trained by that very system that money is lent into existence. All of the schools teach the same thing. And if money is lent into existence, if the fundamental unit of value is money being lent into existence with interest, if you allowed deflation from that money, there is no money. Yeah, money disappears. So from that system, they're correct. And they've never been able, we've never been able to escape that system because what ends up happening is human greed and everything else moves into that system and they try to get some of the action, right? And so today, if let's you use your treasury example, prices are artificially high because we have infinite money monetary units and we don't have a free market. And those infinite or monetary units are increasing exponentially to stop productivity from flowing to society, because if you allowed deflation from that system, everything would fail. So no good or bad people, just a cyst, probably good or bad people too, but mostly a system problem that cannot be resolved from a system problem. And all of the people measuring from within that system problem and contributing to that system problem are making it worse. And they don't, so now you take a loan against your house, and your house appears to go up because the monetary units are going down. And and underneath that, that debt is completely insolvent. The global debt is it's totally insolvent, it cannot be repaid, but we believe it can be repaid. And we believe it can be repaid because we grant governments an ability to debase our money. And the only reason it could be repaid is if they debase our money. So we knowingly most people knowingly operate in a system that knowingly debases their money, measuring from the same unit, and then prices rise of the house. Will they vote for somebody who says, it's over, I'm gonna collapse, your house is gonna go to zero, everything's gonna fail, every bank's gonna fail? No, they'll go, they'll vote for the person that matches the story that they want to hear most, right? I'm going, it's gonna be kind of a free market. I'm gonna print more for you, I'm gonna reduce your taxes on your houses. And so this whole thing gets worse and worse and worse because we're at we're participants in that system, we're measuring from that system. And now, now insert Bitcoin, a protocol that doesn't care about anything I just said. Decentralized protocol bounded by energy, that's imposing a new discipline. It doesn't care, right, what you say there. So, but people do. And in from the version of reality I just described, if you held Bitcoin and you were trying to buy a house, and somebody offered you 12% on your money to be able to hold your Bitcoin, you would take it. So you could buy the house at that price, or you'd likely take it, right? And you'd play, you'd trade your Bitcoin for the centralized system and you'd be back in the centralized system. And eventually, those systems are incompatible together. One's the free market and prices fall, one's uh one, one's a centralizing system. So the centralizing system, just like banks before, if you lent out your gold reserves more than the other bank, you could give a higher interest rate and prices would rise because you kept on creating more units of money. And then when there was a panic because prices rose because of fear and greed in markets, and then there was a panic and you went back to get your uh your your gold and you took the highest interest rate, gold wasn't there. And who did you blame? You didn't blame yourself for taking more risk. You blamed the bank or and the government steps in to create a bigger central bank to absolve you of the risk. So so this is just a totally natural event that's going to play out over and over and over again from a new system that is imposing new rules against people who are measuring that system from the old system.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

Is it that we cannot see it because it just has never happened before? If it has happened before, it was just over such a long period of time that we didn't really were weren't able to see it.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

So what I use an example often in in in uh like why is the inflation rate two percent? Right? Inflation rate's two percent because uh because you don't notice if somebody comes in and steals two percent of your goods out of your house per year. It seems like that. Yeah. But um but you do notice four percent at some point. Yeah, or or eight percent. Yeah, or you notice when, wait, prices should be falling. They shouldn't be measured from zero. My house should be getting, I should have more things in my house every year, and I have less, right? So the inf inflation rate you're measuring from is not the productivity rate of the world. You're measuring from zero. So the two percent, it's so much more is being centralized than you know is being centralized. Most of the the way you're measuring an interest rate is the top of the iceberg. Underneath that is is is an insanity of theft, of centralization. So much theft, so much manipulation, so much control over your individual life from that system, you have no idea how to measure it.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

And the control gets worse. And the control gets worse. It has to.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

In in Canada right now, where I just moved from, almost 50% of uh uh of uh of all economic activity is government spending.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

What I mean, welcome to Europe. This has been the state going on here for many years. And why are living standards going down?

unknown 11:42

Right?

SPEAKER_02 11:43

And why will they continue to go down? They're going to go down because of because because that's stealing and all that regulation. I I use this quote a lot, but took 13 months to build the the Empire State Building. You couldn't get a permit in 13 months today. True. So all the regulation has to get worse, all of the bureaucracy has to get worse. Those people all vote too, and they're getting paid by the same bureaucracy, and it just continues to get worse and worse and worse because it's not the free market. The free market's the opposite. The free markets were in service of each other, and we can't compete and we can't create value unless we deliver somebody else's value.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

Now, people will say that that you know it took 13 months to build the Empire State Building, but that's because you know regulations were too lax back then, you know, it was too dangerous to build it for many people. So where is there like a sweet spot, or do we always go down that road to serfdom?

SPEAKER_02 12:33

So you set up a structural thing that you end up in serfdom. You end up doing doing two things, and we see today what's happening. Some countries are are moving to socialism, some countries are moving to fascism. Both those sides are worrying at each other for who has control. Yeah. We've seen that before. And and and and and they're both control from a system that steals from you. And you have a choice. You can get out of the system completely, completely and be in Bitcoin. That is new. And you've never had that choice.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

It reminds me of a quote from Christine Lagarde who said, if there is an escape, it will be used about Bitcoin.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

And that's why, and and now you're talking, now you talk about quantum risk, you talk about all of the other things, you talk about what you would see, what you should expect to see from the system trying to control you, you should expect to see if you've never lived in the system. You should expect every single thing to drive fear, coercive, and control for you to give up your Bitcoin and move into the other system. You should expect to see it. You should expect to, because you've never lived in something where your agency mattered. You were contributing to something that couldn't be taken and and and not score. Same thing, right? You should expect to see massive backroom deals manipulation to try to get you to centralize this thing. Because if it stayed like I said, the entire structure of every all of those beliefs and all of the nonsense at the top, the total bullshit is at risk.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

So let like that might be a provocative question, but is is Saylor risk like saving the old system by talking about Bitcoin, by getting people to buy into his thing?

SPEAKER_02 14:27

So so I I it so you know Saylor is also a friend friend. I categorically disagree with him on this issue. I've had a three-hour debate over dinner with him on this issue. I just did a speech at Bitcoin uh my uh Miami, or sorry, Bitcoin Vegas, which laid out four observers and what that would look like. There's only one observer that is actually in the new system, and that's somebody who's on a protocol, emerging in a protocol, spending in Bitcoin, everything else. All of the other people, whether you're measuring the fiat currency, whether you're digital credit and everything, all of those other people are contributing to centralization. It's a fiat game. It's a fiat game, because you're measuring in a unit. So so if you create a digital credit and you're into the new central bank because you have digital credit, then then doesn't then isn't that the same game about infinite units? Like where where is the where does the interest rate come from? Because the free market prices fall. So where does the interest rate come from for all of this? U Tim. It comes from more units of money. And so that comes from, and because of everybody's measuring them, it would it would you know, I can't tell you at the end of the day, I can uh what Saylor's gonna do or not do and everything else. I can just observe not what people say, what they do, right? And when some when somebody starts talking about because Saylor used to talk about the same Bitcoin we do, right? And now he talks about digital credit. Never sell you Bitcoin, don't spend your Bitcoin, don't buy pizza with Bitcoin, everything else. And and and and and I'm not saying good or bad or anything else. I just I expect this from lots of people going through this. Because if you could control something, human nature says you would. But that thing would would for sure break Bitcoin because it wouldn't be decentralized and secure right now. But more than likely that won't happen because the nodes at some point, when this centralizing force, whether Sailor does it or the government takes it over, because it has to. You mean sale stake?

SPEAKER_00 16:39

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

Um or what happens with gold when it's centralized? It it disappears basically. You rewrite the rules.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 16:48

You you steal it back, you rewrite the rules. History shows us exactly what happens. The difference in this in Bitcoin as a protocol is you can run a node and I can run a node, and it's my rules. And so when this version of reality comes and says, we're changing the rules, and and you have to go with us, the US coin, the question is, what will you do? You're talking about a fork.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

I'm talking about a fork, which has to happen at some point. Okay, this is now we're getting this is getting interesting now. So who's gonna do the fork? Is it like Saylor, BlackRock, Trump, whatever?

SPEAKER_02 17:25

I can't tell you who. I just know, I just know the momentum building. Think about your own actions today rather than all of those other people. Think about your your own. Most people, if they're rich in Bitcoin, right, if they hold a little about a bit, will will take the money. Like they did selling at 100k and more. Yeah. It's just human nature. I'm not saying the good, bad bad people, it's just what they'll do.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

No, no, I I'm not that this is not a moral thing. Yeah, that's what I'm that's what I'm getting at.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

I'm just saying, what can you expect to happen in most people to take the money? But it won't matter if most people take the money because those people won't be running nodes. Those people won't care anymore. They already have the money, they've cashed out and everything else, and that'll transition to a whole bunch of new people. And the people that are running nodes and the people that are building decentralized and security and now privacy and everything else will ultimately face a choice to, and and that choice, why privacy is so critical in this too, is that choice will not just come with a choice of money, it'll come with a choice of really bad outcomes for driving decentralization, right? It'll come with with people will be hurt, people will be found, people will be hurt if you run a node in favor of this. There'll be so many social attacks, there'll be so many things to make you feel like you need to go along with this version, right? It'll feel like risk on that fork, right? Because the centralizing nature of the world and the AI in the centralizing nature of the world, and all of the actions in a world that's always had pricing going up would match your model of reality, and this one would feel really risk. Bitcoin has to go through this to get to the version of reality that I'm talking about. Not might, because the systems are incompatible, right? You you've never lived in a free market, you've never had a decentralized uh and secure protocol that could protect your right to live in a free market. And and the powers over you because of that, mean you've always given your agency to somebody else. There's somebody else that you should be uh afraid of, somebody else who controls you. People are happy to do it. And and they do it over and over and over. And uh I again, and this is so this is the first time in history that you have agency, complete agency. And and if you move your agency into uh into this thing, this thing emerges with our collective agency.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

If you if you put it like this, we're talking about literally the like like I said, it's like the the the road on the one side you have the road into centralization, serfdom, total control, either socialism or fascism, but not a very good system. And the other one is like freedom, deflation, abundance. Abundance. But still, it feels like this one, the horrible one, is a lot more logic. For me, it's a lot more logical that we call it to go this way.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

So it's lot it's only logical because you you don't understand the trans intransigent minority, me being one of them. Right? The the I am doing this no matter what, right? And and when you say don't trust, verify in Bitcoin, you can't verify for sure I'm going to. I might take the money, right? I believe you. Yeah, but exactly. I don't I'm not gonna take the money. But but uh but but I suspect most people, many people that I know in Bitcoin will. And that doesn't make them bad people, it's just they have their own actions inside of what they say their family right now. But but the intransigent minority is going to win the day. So we are gonna win. We're gonna win. We're gonna win. I we're gonna win for sure.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Because it's such a big thing, it's such a huge thing to talk about.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

So that's why it's that's why that what I talk about feels so because if you're living in fear from the system that you live in fear from, escaping to abundance and what this feels like, you're you're contributing to the world you see, and you don't know, and and and that identity is really hard to go through. But once you've gone through it, you would never trade your time back to the system. Never. And so it so that's why it's so powerful. That's why, that's why in previous realities, pre or previous versions of history, the people that did that were so dangerous to the system. And they were killed. But this is decentralized and secure, and it's now, and now with different things like cashew and Fedament and other things, it's also private. And so now you're you're you have this energy and this let's call it a reflexive reflexive action. As one thing centralizing more and more and driving people within it more and more fear, you have people escaping, and you have those people building something entirely different that feels totally different. And it's reflexive from this. So as this one gets worse, more people move. And once they move, they don't go back, very few, but go back.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

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SPEAKER_02 24:03

Completely right side of history. And they're being and they're being co-opted by a whole bunch of other stuff. And and and that and what you're seeing is the division in Bitcoin right now is the reflexive action of those people that have been right, who fought the block size wars, who who were right then, who are right now, and they are and and and they're yelling, and they're and they're they're they're bringing other people to the dangers of what's happening. And there it feels like if you're in Twitter or something like that, it feels like they're being drowned out that their voices don't matter. I can tell you those voices matter a lot, and they're they are the voices, they're the heart and soul of this movement. Um but because there's eight billion people on the planet, and very few in percentage-wise of these people, lots of people, lots of decentralization, lots of security, lots of things going on. And if you're inside this flow and watching, you're like you're super excited, you know what's going to happen. But if you're if you're not, if you're measuring from pieces of paper and you're in Twitter or Google or anything else, sort of measuring from the centralization, it could appear that this wasn't winning. Because there's so many people, so much noise.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

I I I quit Twitter. Yeah. I I couldn't stand it anymore. Um I don't know, like I didn't know why I did it, I just knew it felt right. Now it makes a little bit more sense. But if you were in Bitcoin, if you're building in Bitcoin, at the intersection of Bitcoin and Fiat, maybe, how do you even know if you're contributing to the right path?

SPEAKER_02 25:42

So that's it that's up for each person and the free market will decide. There's gonna be things wiped out, right? There's gonna be things that are that there are like if you think leverage in Bitcoin, right? Um where does money come from? When it comes when money comes from debt, then it's a really good idea to take on more debt because the money is debased and you pay back the debt in cheaper dollars tomorrow. If you come from a system without debt and you take on debt and prices fall, you have a problem. You have a problem. And so, but because that is such a hard thing, because because people most people are measuring prices that are artificially high from the other system trying to make make a life in Bitcoin. So so if you had a bunch of money here, you'd you would leverage it to try to keep up with the Joneses over here. And so this is going to happen time and time again is this new system doesn't care about what you think about it or the about the old system.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Do you really think that we are going from a debt-based inflationary monetary system to uh equity-based deflationary monetary system based on Bitcoin? No, not think, I know.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

So the only reason that doesn't happen is if Bitcoin become it becomes centralized or or or breaks. The only reason. And we all have that's a danger. No, no, but but but then what what is the what is what creates the uh my reason for being sure? Because we have agency. Bitcoin isn't a thing, it's us. I run a note. I see all of these social attacks, I see what I should do because of quantum, I see what I should do because of this, and everything else. All of the trusty experts they know better than you, and I run a note. So I most of the stuff is just a kind just completely nonsense, nonsensical. And and you can see through all the bullshit because you're living in a different system. I'm now investing in that system too, investing in like incredible talent. I'm not saying that all the companies will have success, because they have to compete in a free market. They have to compete and provide more value to uh to others, and that's hard to do, right? But by watching that and emerging and what's happening, like no, I'm uh massively confident because to not be confident it means I don't believe in myself and other people because it that are making similar choices. It means not being confident means I'm giving my agency to somebody else that I'm scared of by giving my agency because and where is that agency coming from? It's coming from this manipulated system that I'm trying to keep up with somebody else from. So so no, I would I'd go further. This is happening, this will happen no matter what. And if you believe in kind of the best in people, it's I I can I can understand why people don't today, because they're living in a construct of people and the pain that people are imposed with by built this belief system from this construct that is just like we lend money into existence. That sim you can't allow the free market. So, how could any version of your version of reality, capitalism, socialism, whatever um work?

SPEAKER_00 29:14

The thing is that it it's it's such a huge thing. I'm I'm following you, I'm trying to follow you, and like I'm I'm acting in this way. I'm like what you're saying is basically in order for the positive version of the future to happen, you have to act like it's already a foregone conclusion, right? It's like when you when you go into a uh a tournament, there's like this this this famous interview with Tiger Woods, where he's very young and he's talking to some other golfer and he's and Tiger like at 19 says, Well, I'm gonna I want to win the tournament. And the the the interviewer says, Well, he laughs at him and you'll learn. But basically, there's no point in going into a tournament if you're not thinking about winning. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

And so what you'll find too about, and maybe it's because of my entrepreneurial background, maybe it's because if you if you've seen the Myers-Briggs profile, the int uh TJ, I I think so. They um but but Bitcoiners uh are most Bitcoiners, I think 75% of them are in in a tiny group that are that are that are also people that are visionaries that see the uh see where the world's going. And those people create the world.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

I so I've I've not looked into this at all, but like two days ago, I had a long comment on one of my YouTube videos talking about exactly this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

And so, so, and I'm not saying they're better people, right? Good or bad, because it's easy to get into your own, I'm better. They're better at something than some people are. Some people are really good at okay, uh, the operation within a system. They're not good at creating the new system. They fit in the walls of the operating, and they're and they're much like for me and that person. If I'm creating a company, I need somebody like this as a partner because I'm visionary where the world's going, and I need somebody to make trains run on time. Right. And so it's a that yin and yang of uh of this creative destruction of the of the world. And you and some people are really good at living, okay, here's how I operate within the model. And but most people can't, and and and and most people live there, right? So they're measuring inflation from inflation, GDP, and all of the same things. And and what we're talking about just goes straight over them because it feels so abstract. Whereas if you're talking to somebody who's uh who's a visionary, who's created things over and over and over again, created something from nothing, that the only thing that the only way that that could exist is if they created it from their mind and they knew that once it existed, people would change and use it. Right. This is what's happening, this is why it's so hard to see. You're the the emergent properties of this are from the people that are creating it.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Do you think have you been to Bhutan? I haven't. You need to go to Bhutan. Buddhism, mindfulness, green energy, um, gross happiness product. Yeah. And what do they do? They sell half their currency reserves to buy Bitcoin mining equipment. And it seems like that they see something like it's going there, it's like going to a different version of the future. I had the the central, like the the the vice governor of the central bank ask me what is the role of a central bank in the Bitcoin world? I was like, I was like, I need a drink before I answer this. Totally, because there is no role.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

But when you realize the world changes by us, that you have to you just have to ask a really simple question, which side?

SPEAKER_00 32:43

Which side am I on?

SPEAKER_02 32:44

Yeah, which side am I on? Which so if if the world changes as a result of your actions and and you know your actions inside the centralizing system contribute to that world, then you have a face an existential crisis in your own mind. What do you choose? That's all it is.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

I think basically like a quote that I that I use all the time is I'm saying like if the Bitcoin thing doesn't work out, I still just have all the problems that other people already have, right? So it's not like there is no risk there, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

And and and I think and I just take it forward. It's going to work out because it could because that's where I'm gonna spend all my time. Because um why would I do why would I do the other? Because I'm uh it by doing the other, I'm making the thing stronger that is anything. Every time, no, I I try to as much as I can live in a Bitcoin standard, but I can't everywhere. I I I I I look up to people who do everywhere. Um and I try to, I try to spend more, but every time I spend money in a fiat, I I have that sense of it's dirty money that I'm making that system stronger.

SPEAKER_00 33:55

If you're not buying Bitcoin, I guess. Because you if you're spending fiat to buy Bitcoin, then then But I'm I'm saying actually spending Bitcoin.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

Spending, spending Bitcoin. Spending Bitcoin. Yeah, okay. Two two people that aren't turning Bitcoin into fiat, two people that are saving Bitcoin and contributing value in that. No, I don't that might be too far for some people to go. I don't care, I don't care. I'm just saying how and it doesn't matter, and I'm not trying to say better or worse or anything else. I'm just saying for me who it is for me, right? And so so I'm not trying to measure myself as being better. I'm not trying to say, it's just once I know what two systems look like, I have a choice myself, and I can contribute to the system that that frees the world, or I can contribute to the system that enslaves the world.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

Are there like how how long did it take you from writing your book to seeing this? Because when we first talked about Bitcoin, there was no ETF, there was no Larry Fink, there was no Michael Saylor, there was no um American strategic Bitcoin reserve. All of that came later. Um like did when when this happen started happening, were you first thinking this is a good thing, or were you already seeing like the centralization happening?

SPEAKER_02 35:11

You could see you could see the centralized so one of the reasons we invested in FEDI early on is exactly this. Unless this and and and that was really early because people weren't people weren't even using this as a current. We invested in Breeze, right? And at that time, lightning uh lightning payments were mostly failing, right? And you knew that the infrastructure needed to develop in a way that could free people and they could uh could use this as a and and that was hard, hard tech to build, same as FEDI. How do you protect people's privacy? Like I mean completely private, their communications and everything else, before something centralized is so bad that they can't get out. Um and so those are hard, hard problems to solve. And so you we invested in some of the technology, that some of the best, brightest minds to be able to develop some of this before this would happen. And it's still really early. Most people don't know they need it while they're inside the other system being monitored, or it's a surveillance state. Yeah, I mean it's already a surveillance state.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

So in Europe, in Europe now you have a rule that the first, like the first Bitcoin address that you use, the first wallet that you use, it you have to basically identify yourself and put your name on it. So they have a starting point for surveillance.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

So so in other words, this the technology and the protocol, when I say protocol, just think about internet and merging in layers, right? And think about if you were the beginning of the internet, Paul Barron in 65, but it's kind of ARPNET in in 1969, at the beginning of the internet, essentially there was no head to choke, you couldn't shut it down. Then the layers evolved. There was competing layers to evolve. There was there was the OSI um path, government, here's the way it has to evolve, and there was a neutral protocol that was evolving. Now the same things that were happening on the internet are happening today on so I'm gonna finish that. Um imagine holding on to a piece of the internet, not just the companies on top of the internet, a piece of the internet from 1969 where you got the value of all of the companies building on top flowed to you. That's what's owning Bitcoin today. Forever. Every company that ever created value flowed to you is holding Bitcoin. That's what it looks like. How many people would hold that against everything, uh, everything else coming? But neutral protocols are winner-take all, and they're new, and they're attacked everywhere, right? But they're attacked everywhere by centralization, by by because the risk to the centralizing forces from the neutral protocol is everything. Right? So you have to expect all of these attacks, social attacks, everything else. You'd have to expect it all. And then neutral protocols develop more functionality on top. Now the internet has developed more functionality because but because it wasn't money inside that, it's been co-opted at different layers. So now HTTP, like if you you have to, it goes to a centralized, and you can get shut off from the internet. You can get you Google could stop you, YouTube could show you. And we're looking through a lens of something that's completely inside that manipulated game. And you have this new protocol in development that is private, that that can't be shut off, that is now with FIPS on Noster, and it's really early, some of these things, that's essentially having a new new internet, new protocol bounded by energy, that's that's that's where all value will accrue to you by by holding it, and you're a part of this system. How many people will hold through this? How many people will develop to it? That's where all the opportunity lives. Um, but it's being attacked. You you don't know the opportunity lives there because you're being attacked by this uh this other thing.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

Because if you if you if you frame it like this, it is more powerful than the most powerful system already.

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Yeah, it's already more powerful.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

But but the internet is a good example. Now we have we have age limits on the internet, there's many like firewalls, many countries. Iran just giving basically can shut off your internet, right? I know that there's technologies being built to get around this, but but still there's there the fight about on the internet still seems to be going on.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

It it absolutely is it because it's all been it's all the money at the top. So right now, there's so many people taking the technologist side versus the banker side, and all they're doing is trading leaders to Elon Musk and everything else by celebrating, and you have a technocrats might be smarter than the previous bankers. It's just still the same control system.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Do you have you seen the show Silicon Valley? Yeah, that's what it's all about. It's about building a decentralized internet, and then you have like the centralized forces, you know, like a Google or whatever, and then Bitcoin is like a sub-theme that goes through the whole through the whole show.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

So, so writing my book and being in technology and and kind of going to Google Zeitgeist each year and going to like these were the all all of my people, right? So I was built very successful company in the in the internet days, and I was around all of this. And and the idea, and most of those people essentially fought Bitcoin, scammed it with the coins and everything else. And why? Because it it when my book came out, I was pushed away, like I was like, and because because it goes against that version of the control world. Right? It goes it goes completely against it. It brings abundance to everyone from from a system from uh uh from a system. So when I see this, and again, I've been in the belly of the beast, right? So some of the things I see across trying to stop this are, I wouldn't say on this podcast. Like some of the things that I see, and and so I know what the social attacks would look like. I know what the uh the this would uh this would look like because uh um and and it's egregious, right? It's a um and lots of people will take the money.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

How much of those social attacks, financial attacks, centralization attacks are because you want to attack Bitcoin? And how many is there like a subpart of people who understand that they have to join the new system already? It's hard to know.

SPEAKER_02 41:53

It's really hard to know. I would just say the incentives of the system drive the we don't realize how we change. It's our change, it's our identity change that is the new Bitcoin. So I I used to operate in a world before I wrote my book, before everything else, I believed I lived in a free market. I believed that capitalism was as close as we could have to, and I I didn't realize it was a zero-sum game based on m m money printing. The debt was already insolvent, couldn't be repaid. Technology would make things cheaper faster, meaning that would centralize faster. That's what I explored in my book. But by exploring it in my book, I also explored it in myself. Right? And and and and as you explore it, you just you get to, and you don't want to believe, like if somebody said to you what you're doing is hurting these people over here directly because of uh you don't want to believe that. You don't want to believe the Democratic Republic of Congo and their pain is is because of what you do here. And it might not be directly, but it's part of it. You live in a you we live in a essentially modern day slavery where if you're at the closer to the top, you're a winner that's stealing from more and more of the population forever. That is true for sure.

SPEAKER_00 43:28

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SPEAKER_02 45:14

Yeah, and and and and and all of the training comes from that. So all of the institutions are co-opted by the same thing. Where does money come from for the institutions? Where does money come from to elect political leaders? It comes from the top. Always has. And so it's going to continue to indoctrinate people inside that system. And so writing the book was almost cathartic for me. And but but it forced a an existential crisis in me. I had to decide. I had to let go of previous beliefs that that I didn't want to not be true. Like I didn't want to be realizing them they were they're lies meant realizing I live always lived in a lie. And that's hard to do.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

Do you think that some of the technologists at least partly get it? I mean Musk put Bitcoin on the balance sheet of Tesla and SpaceX. Peter Thiel wrote the foreword of the sovereign individual.

SPEAKER_02 46:14

So if they if they got it, they would be in the in on in this podcast today.

SPEAKER_00 46:20

I mean they are always invited if you if you want to join, right? Like Peter, Elon, you know, you can always come.

SPEAKER_02 46:25

But again, and and they will get it eventually, though, but but today so these people, the same people you're talking about, uh built PayPal.

SPEAKER_01 46:34

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 46:35

Those two. Yeah. Yeah. They know how money works.

SPEAKER_01 46:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:38

Um I saw an interview with a young Elon talking about how he wanted to be at the top, top of the capital stock because of how money works, because because you've got to. And and and so if you know how money works, and Bitcoin changes that paradigm, would it be would you the question is, would you step in to to extract more and more from a whole bunch of people believed that you were hero, right? And you were their new technical oral overlord, or would you contribute to something that's uh that that uh that you made a lot less by by making every by by driving uh driving value to everyone. So I can't uh each person kind of makes that decision, but I can't the evidence is pretty clear. Um if you take Bitcoin on your balance sheet too, and the amount of work that you would do this, you understand how technology, you know, understand everything I'm saying about technology. You understand everything if you build PayPal, you know how money works.

unknown 47:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

Yeah, and you're but he is he is basically on the top of the of the value chain.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

He's the new he he he he decides who gets elected. He pay right like it's it's so crazy, and then people follow him like crazy, like the best entrepreneur. I'm not saying he's not a good entrepreneur, but it but but um I can't know what he thinks, I just know what uh what I think, and this this system changes all of that. And so if at some point he's gonna realize it and come over, and people will will welcome him with open arms, or he's gonna fight it the entire time.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

But that's my question, because there is Bitcoin on the balance sheet. He he already has so there's like a step that not many others have taken.

SPEAKER_02 48:33

Yeah, and maybe it's a hedge for him. Uh-huh. But again, but but what we're talking about is you make one system stronger or the other system stronger. Right now it is very clear. SpaceX had $1.7 trillion IPO and and retail offering at those types of losses. It's very clear that he's making the other system stronger.

SPEAKER_00 48:54

It's another another fiat game. Another fiat game. It's another fiat game. Why don't you do a fiat game? Um It sounds like you you understand how to really get super rich in the fiat world.

SPEAKER_02 49:04

Uh I I I just asked myself, I it was never about money for me. It was about uh like you can make a lot of money in this game too, and you can do and and so I would never want Elon's life. That that seems like such a hollow, shallow life. If I said what that that uh looks like, trying to serve everyone uh uh and and this game and everything else faster and faster, and I'm the best in the world and everything else. I wouldn't want that life, I wouldn't want that life for my family. So I can't say, I can only say what I want, right? I can only say say, um I've had not I've had lots, I've had nothing. I realized at nothing I had everything.

SPEAKER_00 49:47

So it's not about the money. Never the money's easy. But what about Starlink? That's that's something that could help with a decentralized, secure internet for everyone, right?

SPEAKER_02 49:59

Or centralize it all under one master.

SPEAKER_00 50:01

Sure. It's both both goes both ways. It goes both ways.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

Under broken money, that's what it does. And you'll be shut off. He's shut off, he's shut off Starlink to certain countries. You will be shut off. If you're if you're operating in a centralized system, no matter what, and you are you are the risk to this, this is why privacy is so important. This is what if you will be shut off, it's just a matter of time. Because the because the centralized system can't have opposing voices.

SPEAKER_00 50:30

We we had the Argentinian minister of deregulation in Vienna a couple of weeks ago, and he talked about how because of laws that the cable companies lobbied into existence, satellite internet was not allowed in Argentina. Argentina is eight times the size of Germany, it's very sparsely populated. Um they spent lots of money on cables, but you never reach Patagonia. Now they got rid of that, and everybody's using Starlink. Obviously, yes, you're right, Mask could censor them. But if the choice is between no internet and the risk of Elon censoring you, you can still you would still go with Elon, right? Right.

SPEAKER_02 51:06

But okay, now you're just it now we're making arguments for who gets to control you in the existing system. Let's take that argument down to the sand and what happens in a free market. What ends up happening typically when you control money, right? Or when you control a monopoly, there can be no monopoly in a free market because the the the the monopoly itself creates the margin opportunity to attack the monopoly. So what the monopoly has to do is do exactly what you just said the telephone companies did. Block exactly block that. And so how do they do that? They buy off politicians, right, with all their money to be able to create the monopoly. And then all of the people in this think the politicians are saving them because they're they're they're they're they're helping. It's always designed in a way, Patriot Act, right? The inflation reduction act, a lot of stuff that's happening in Europe about the energy and everything else. It's always designed, the words that they use is always exactly the opposite, right? Clarity Act right now, right? Exactly the opposite of what it is.

SPEAKER_00 52:14

I like this, I saw this picture of the EU Commission, and they have like in huge letters on the whole building, it says democracy. And that shocked me. Because when they use the word democracy, like in eastern Germany or in you know, even North Korea is officially democracy democracy, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:30

So so it's it it's it's inside the Psy op and what and and and so it gives more control to the monopolies. Monopolies favor regulation, they try to get regulation. AI monopolies right now are driving the same thing through fear of AI, so they can regulate to control you and AI. Yeah, so so all of this is from that same same thing. But as that centralizing force gives less value, right? So now we're gonna go to the next step of this. The creative destruction for the centralizing force comes orthogonally, it comes from somewhere else. In this case, satellites that break it anyways. It just takes longer. And it then it moves to someone else. So if you try to stop the free market um to block it, you actually just drive it somewhere else to kill it. And your citizens suffer while while uh while that happens because the value growth doesn't come to you, it goes to somebody else.

SPEAKER_00 53:33

Your argument is the free market has been has been stopped for hundreds of years. Forever. Forever. Forever. But Bitcoin is gonna destroy all that.

SPEAKER_02 53:43

All of it's a first frame. Creative destruction. It's the first framework. You you are if you're playing on Bitcoin, if you're truly playing on Bitcoin and driving everything, you're living in the first infinite game that's ever existed. That's Simon Sinek. You're you're literally living in an infinite game. Every other game has been a zero-sum game. You so let's say City of London, you debase your currency a little bit, you build a giant war machine, right? Ships, everything else, and you invade other lands. You extract their resources, put them in slavery. At the top, think about think about Britain or UK, right? You have an island nation with very few raw materials that the sun never sets on the British Empire. So how does that happen? It happens through this extraction. Extract, you build this force, you invade other people, zero-sum game. Then now that some another country understands the game, they they do the same thing back to you. Game's been played our entire, like our entire existence is in that zero-sum game. Now we play that same game through a monetary instrument where you don't actually have to send your people to invade them. You steal their money silently through uh uh revaluing their currencies or or putting somebody in power so that they revalue the currency so that people uh are living in modern-day slavery, right? And you're extracting around the world. Game still being played that way, everybody inside that game is still playing according to those rules. Bitcoin is completely new rules, it doesn't care about that game.

SPEAKER_00 55:25

How do you think this is gonna develop over the next years? And what are we as Bitcoiners supposed to do in order to really join the infinite game that you're talking about and you know walk towards freedom and just you know go for it?

SPEAKER_02 55:42

I I get asked that all the time, and I and and and I can't tell any individual person because what what uh uh maybe I'll say for me what it looked like. You asked when I wrote my book first, I quite honestly, I felt like a fraud for a while because I didn't and I didn't know this because I all my money was coming from uh book sales, but that's most of my money was on boards of of technology companies and and driving in my investments in technology companies and everything else in the fiat world. And I woke up one day, and and again, this is after I went to zero. My family went to zero. From our we round-tripped our company, it was worth half a billion dollars, I was worth a hundred million, and it went to zero. So in 2017, I rebuilt a bunch of the wealth doing this. Everybody wanted me on their boards and uh and and such, but it was it was fiat as I wrote my book as I was talking about this. My book took off, I'm talking to all over the world, I'm I'm in Bitcoin, I'm buying Bitcoin, I'm I'm at that time not spending a bunch of Bitcoin, but I'm uh buying more and more. Everybody wants me to speak at their conferences. I woke up one night and I went, holy shit, I'm a hypocrite. Right. My energy is here trying to get money to move it to the hedge, and my energy is destroying the world, right? And and and so ego death capital came out of me resolving that thing in me. And so, um, and and I could because I couldn't, I just had to move my time. And so that's where uh that's where the insight to be able to move the time from this system to this system came. Now, what did that look like? I could go to my wife and say, I know we've already been to zero. We're we're okay again now, and now I have to start this other thing, but it means taking no salary at zero, and it might take two years, it might not even work. It might not, and then we went to raise the raise the capital for EgoDeath Fund Fund One, and it was we had about 40 million, uh, we targeted at 30 million, we oversubscribed to 40, 40 million, FTX happened, and 11 million closed. So now you're out on a limb, right? You don't have money, you don't have anything else. You you have some savings that you can work on, and you go and do the thing that's aligned with your values. And and so for me, I wouldn't have known what this looks like. And I but I also understand how risky it felt. And um, but I wouldn't have known what it looks like and how much not just wealth, but uh how easy everything is from this new uh uh reality um if I hadn't taken the step. So so now how do I so I can tell my story, but how do I tell somebody else what they should do? I can't, right? I shouldn't. I can only tell it what what it looked like for me. And once it was aligned with my values, everything just became really easy. I got uh it just everything opened up. I just see the best and the brightest all over the world that are that are that are building this ecosystem and I'm in this flow and I'm uh and I'm I'm watching this happen, and I and you're both you're you're you're not just observing it, you're part of it. And so it is it's beautiful. And why what gives me um a lot of hope is because I'm in it. I'm not in this anymore. Um and and so now if you asked me how would I do it now, and so actually today in EgoDeath right now is we're we're about to develop another strategy, but all of our LPs, many of our LPs, had fiat businesses that did the same thing I did, exactly the same thing, and have been watching this and have started coming to us. Uh uh, how do we move all of our time? All right, I could sell to private equity, take a tax hit, buy Bitcoin, and then what? But what if I could transition my entire business to Bitcoin? What if I could what what if uh what would that look like? So we're gonna launch a new strategy tied uh tied to that. But that insight for the strategy is actually coming from the exact same thing I just described in myself.

SPEAKER_00 59:59

Do you think like one thing that I see over and over and over again is like people discover Bitcoin and they want to not just buy it, they want to join it, they want to do something, like help it, do anything with Bitcoin. Do you think that there's like like a field of attraction around this positive force that pulls people in?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:20

Yes. It's what you and I feel. That's right. So it's the um we don't talk all the time, but I still like from from I know who you are, I know you that you've already done this work, and and like it resonates then, it resonates now, it resonates in 20 years, right? And um, and so you can feel it, you can feel it around when you're around those people, everything's easier. And um, you don't have to go through that. Are people cheating me? Uh, what does this look like? Am I playing in a zero-sum game? What do I have to do to be able to? It's just very, very different.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:56

It becomes extremely apparent once you go in back into like the old feared world and see the difference and and do the same things that you would do in the Bitcoin world, but it it feels different and it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:06

Of course it doesn't, because you're building on something that's inherently unstable that has to break. The debt's already insolvent.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:13

Is all of this why like Bitcoin still has such like a powerful psychological reaction? Like people who don't care about Bitcoin will still tell you that it's stupid. When you bring it up, you can bring up AI, you can we change everything through AI. I can there is like people who want to you know dim down the sun to fight climate change, but then when you say Bitcoin, everybody's oh my god, what is but but again, it and again, because it's such an abstract concept that's never existed, that it's imposing something that's it that's not in your brain.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:45

Like it's like the the the change is so profound, right? So you asked me at the beginning of this conversation, and I think a lot of people uh do, do you really think this is true?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:58

And it's not, do I think it's imposing it. Yeah, it is true. And so what so the only the only question is are you taking agency in it? Right? Um, and and and if you're living in the other world, I I know I I fear for people, I don't know, fear for them, but I know this feels so crazy, but it is also true. And and the the and and from a system that must debase its currency faster and faster from this, you can see all the next things that are gonna happen. You can see everything that's gonna happen. So people are gonna get hurt over and over and over again, and that reflects people getting hurt or going to zero.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:44

But what is gonna happen?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:45

It's like what what do you think is like countries are gonna move to socialism or fascism? You're gonna have more and more fights, people are gonna take sides in uh in in in both, like they're doing today. They'll go deeper and deeper into their belief system, not understanding the bigger structure that's happening to all of them. They'll be they'll be manipulated, they'll live in fear, they'll do they'll they'll believe more and more that their side is right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:09

And it's gonna get worse everywhere. It's it's like this is why I started talking about Hayek and Mises. I think like if I didn't read these old authors from like a hundred years ago or even more, my brain would not have been able to compute the whole Bitcoin thing at all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:25

And so when were they talking about this? They were talking about it at another similar change. And they were talking about it with electricity, a fundamental change driving productivity, growth, and manipulation of money exploding, right? Kind of at the end of the cycle. And it and those people stood out for that, but the manipulated money. So what happened at the end of World War II? Like we World War I isn't solved yet.

unknown 1:03:54

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:55

We've just extended it, extended it, and that and World War II on Bretton Woods then then turned into the petrodollar system that's extended the uh this thing, and that's breaking, breaking down um right now. Nothing's resolved because we never lived in a free market. And so those people stood out because they were talking about the things that would happen, and they watched them happen, and then most people went right back to this, and there's so much money to overwhelm that signal. That's why that's so this is so different, because this signal isn't just one or two people.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:31

This is Jeff. I don't know what to say. I mean, we could sit here all day, and I think I think people will tell me that we should have gone on. But um, do you have like a book that you would recommend right now that that that like resonates with you that you would would tell people to maybe check out over the summer holidays, I guess?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:51

Oh, I don't so so I think a lot sure, but not Bitcoin, not specifically. No, no, no, whatever. Um read power versus force. Okay. Right. Read power versus force, David Hawkins, and understand how your consciousness would reflect back at you and um and and what that would look like from from your view of con uh from consciousness. So it's a book I probably read every year. I just think it's a it's a really good that's the exact book I was looking for.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:19

Okay. Do you have a quote that's in your head that's like that you really like from any anything?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:25

Not really. I worked I always do, and then when somebody asks me on this, I don't have to do that. I know I'll you'll think of something tomorrow at the time. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:33

Yeah. Jeff Booth, this was amazing. It's good that we do this every couple of years because I need to go back to the first principles of thinking. Thank you so much. Have a great time in Prague. I hope we do this again. Me too. Thanks.com. Vielen Dank auch an die absoluten Legenden von euch, die das Ganze über Fountain hören oder andere Value for Value-Apps und immer wieder auch Stats drüber schicken. Dafür bin ich mega dankbar. Das ist mega motivierend. Besucht doch unbedingt meine Sponsoren, unsere Sponsoren, die uns unterstützen und auch Codes zur Verfügung stellen, wie zum Beispiel Continentie v21 Energy VBitbox, wo ihr mit was Bitcoin bringt, günstiger einkaufen könnt. Und die Liste an Vorteilen, die euch dieser Code bringt, die ganze, die könnt ihr auch finden auf wasbitcoinbringt.com. Schaut euch da unbedingt die Vorteile an. Vielen Dank fürs Dabeisein. Bis zum nächsten Mal. Euer Nico.