Was Bitcoin bringt - mit Niko Jilch

The Dark Truth Behind Wall Streets Embrace of Bitcoin | Lea Thompson (English)

• Binifico • Season 5 • Episode 52

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Bitcoin was built as a tool for absolute financial sovereignty and privacy, yet the explosion of Wall Street ETFs and aggressive European anti-money laundering regulations threaten to dilute its foundational ethos. In this episode, Cake Wallet's Lea Thompson joins me in the studio to break down the reality of self-custody, the shifting political landscape in the United States, and why interacting with real peer-to-peer money matters more than holding institutional paper derivatives. We also explore a brand-new open-source development that natively fuses end-to-end encrypted messaging with the Lightning network, presenting a massive leap forward for daily financial independence without financial intermediaries.

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* Marketingmitteilung. Keine Anlageberatung. Investieren birgt Risiken. Transaktionen mit Bitcoin können zum vollständigen Verlust des eingesetzten Kapitals führen.

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SPEAKER_02

Welcome Leah. Leah Thompson from CakeWallets to was Bitcoin bringt. Hi.

SPEAKER_01

Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here with you in person.

SPEAKER_02

Well thank you for stepping by. It's it's I thought about this. I think this is the first episode that I'm ever doing in English in the studio.

SPEAKER_01

Ah, okay. I'm honored.

SPEAKER_02

It's it's it's just what it is, you know. It's a German podcast, but um but with Cake. Um you've been partners for a year now, I think. And um and obviously we want we want to know know what you guys are doing. But first, before you know, I want to know what you are doing, what brings you here. So what what Leah, what's your story?

SPEAKER_01

So I first got into Bitcoin actually almost 10 years ago. Um, so I um just I had some friends that were into it. I had someone that told me about this like website where you could blog and earn crypto. It was like back in the day. It was back, you know, and so I started kind of in that, and that what is what led me down the rabbit hole to being here now. But um, yeah, it's been, I mean, as you know, once you get into Bitcoin, you don't really go back. Like it's it's a pretty amazing journey once you go down that rabbit hole.

SPEAKER_02

So if you if you know anyone who who like quit Bitcoin, you can you can send them my way. I can do an interview. That would be interesting. I have not I I have had like 400 episodes, but I never had like an ex-bitcoiner.

SPEAKER_01

That's fair. Because anyone that says that, they probably never really got into it. They probably bought something at the height and then they're like, oh, it didn't work, you know, blah, blah, blah, like it dipped. And so, but you're right, anyone who truly understands, because I really come from more of a self-sovereign freedom kind of perspective. Um, you know, I'm more on the like libertarian and personal freedom side of things. And so that's actually what originally kind of drew me to Bitcoin in a lot of ways as well, is this you know departure from the current financial system and having, you know, better options for people. And so um, anyone that really understands, I think, the core principles of Bitcoin, yeah, they don't go back.

SPEAKER_02

How? How did you get into the whole, you know, self-sovereign, libertarian side of things?

SPEAKER_01

You know, that's interesting because so I'm from the United States, right? And um very early on, I ended up um working on a political campaign for um a state house of representatives, and it was really interesting for me to be a little bit more behind the scenes in the political world and see some of the, I don't say corruption, but just some of the different ways that um both sides of the aisle, you know, really tried to tweak things to their own gain. And it kind of turned me off of that in general and just realizing, okay, this, you know, free society we have maybe is not as free as I thought. And it kind of just really set me down looking into that a little bit more and realizing that more of that libertarian freedom mindset is actually like aligned better with my values.

SPEAKER_02

Did you get into Ron Paul?

SPEAKER_01

I did. Yeah.

unknown

Yep, yes, you did. Yep.

SPEAKER_00

I was actually um a delegate for uh yeah, I used to be a little more involved on the political side.

SPEAKER_02

But did you was that the political geek that you worked for him, or did you work for somebody else and then found out about Ron Paul?

SPEAKER_01

Uh correct. Yeah, someone else, and then that made me realize how much more I aligned with Ron Paul and his uh ideals. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

He was like a proto Bitcoiner before Bitcoin was even a thing, right?

SPEAKER_01

No. Yeah, it's it's pretty amazing actually when you look at how far ahead of his time he really was. And even like decades ago, you see old videos and he stayed so consistent with just his messaging of being like, let people live their lives, you know, um, as long as you're not harming someone else. And like that just really struck with me as something that was worth fighting for. And it's interesting to see uh someone actually get as far as he did on a political stage in a third-party sense, because in the US it's very two-party based. It's very rare to see someone actually make that big of a splash and have momentum like that.

SPEAKER_02

So he has a legendary thing on his desk, right? Don't steal, the government hates competition.

unknown

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

I love that.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, it's a lot harder understanding this in Europe anyway, especially in in Western Europe. So Eastern Europe is different. We just met in Prague where where there's like a strong libertarian cyberpunk scene. Yeah. Um, but Western Europe is very socialist. Um we don't we don't understand the difference between you know government and people, basically. But in the US it's different. So, so so uh how are things right now?

SPEAKER_01

Uh it's it's it's interesting. Obviously, it's more divided than it used to be, I would say. But we're coming back to a little, we're swinging back, I think, to a little bit more uh compassion and understanding between people. But there was a few years there where if you were on different sides of a political spectrum, like it broke friendships even and families, and like it just uh there was people were so passionate about them being right. There was less understanding and in you know communication between people. And so that was really sad to see. But I feel like it's starting to kind of uh mellow out a little bit more again. So hopefully.

SPEAKER_02

Really? Even with Trump in the office?

SPEAKER_01

I think so, because I think we went so far in one direction, then we went so far in another, and I think people are just tired of the extremes. That's what I'm starting to sense. That people they just want to be understood and to be listened to. And I think that when you have such extremes and people aren't really having conversations and aren't respecting each other's opinions, like that's that gets old after a while, you know, unless you stay in your own bubble where everyone just agrees with you.

SPEAKER_02

So you think you think that that that like the this bipolar thing that we've been doing for the last couple of years, it just really gets old. Like people get tired of it and then realize that that you know it's not a problem to have different opinions?

SPEAKER_01

Uh I wouldn't say we're there yet, but I would say that it feels like it's softened a bit and people are starting to maybe get a little bit tired. At least I hope so.

SPEAKER_02

So I mean I can see some a little bit like that. It gets it it's now, especially in Germany, it's getting worse now. It's not getting better. It's it's it's still getting worse, but but you have to understand that we do lag behind when it comes to these things, especially when it comes to like openness of of dialogue um on the internet, right? But now you can you can basically say anything on the internet and maybe people realize that it's it's it's not a problem. It's not so bad. It's not like the the end the the world is ending just because people express their opinions. And Americans have always been very strong about you know, freedom of opinion and freedom of expression.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I think that there were a few years where people really were um like you felt like they couldn't speak. And I still think that's true to a certain extent, where there's not there is obviously freedom of speech, but you still can, you have to worry a little bit about what you say. But I think again, that is kind of coming back around um because I think that um well, honestly, like I think a big shifting point was when um Elon Musk acquired Twitter now X, like because there's not as much censorship of information. And um now that there actually really is a platform where you can say what you want and information can get out, I think that that's a really big piece too that's slowly kind of helped to equal out some of the conversation a little bit.

SPEAKER_02

I st I still I cannot use it anymore. I don't think no, I can no. I mean, the thing is that I I realized at some point, especially with Bitcoin during the last bull market, I realized that it's it's so much slop. It's not not just the AI slop, it's like chart slop. It's like you look at some guys saying, We're going to 200k, and you look at at these arguments, and it's like that makes sense. And the next guy's like, We are crashing to 50k, and you look at the arguments and they all also make sense, and then you realize you're wasting your time, and then there's lots of like emotion, you know, emotional grifting everywhere. Oh, yeah, and it's like it costs so much energy. So I'm not complaining about mask buying it or whatever, you know. I I drive a Tesla, I don't have the stupid sticker, right? Right? Um, but but so I'm not complaining, but it's still like I'm a journalist, but I realize that you know following the news is actually counterproductive. It's I like I look at the chart now and I see the chart and it's doing bear market things, and it's like everybody's uh asking me what's happening, and I'm saying it's a bear market, just stick it out, basically. Yeah, and it's it's a way better way to go for me.

SPEAKER_01

Well, yeah, and I think that um it kind of comes back to that whole like the ethos of Bitcoin and why it was built, right? And so, yes, obviously the price is something that we love to pay attention to, like you said. Yeah. But and it matters. It's a signal. Yeah, absolutely. But ultimately, like you said, if you believe in the underlying technology and the mission behind what it can really do and unlock for the world, then ultimately the price will eventually follow and you just you've got to be, like I said, willing to stick it out.

SPEAKER_02

So how would you describe the mission? The mission of Bitcoin.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, that's a good question. I think that um really it's creating more sovereign money, like where people really can move freely throughout the world and do what they want to do and not have to ask permission and not have to go through third parties and banks and financial institutions that might choose to freeze their money, that might choose to say, oh, it's gonna take three to five days, oh, you've got a limit on this. Money shouldn't be like that. Money people should be able to exchange value um immediately and exactly how they want to. And so I think that it really helps us to break out of this very, very broken financial system that we've been operating under for so long. I mean, especially, you know, in the United States, right? We got off the gold standard how many decades ago, and um inflation and you know, money printing and all of these things, like we aren't moving in a good direction in the fiat system. You know, and so having an alternative that is more sound money that people can actually um, you know, you can bank on in terms of being like, okay, that these are the exact mechanics, it's not going to be printed more than that. There's not, you know, it's a deflationary asset versus inflationary. I think that that's massively important. And it just makes sense. Like, why are we still working in this old system? So, you know, obviously in um, you know, uh the United States and you know, here in Austria, like um, you know, we don't we have access to banking tools and things like that, but there's so many parts of the world, like, you know, places in Africa and Latin America where they don't have as much access to financial tools. And so Bitcoin really helps to be an equalizer for people as well.

SPEAKER_02

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SPEAKER_01

I think so. I mean I I agree that obviously there's been a lot of like distraction along the way with things like stable coins and other things, but ultimately, um, you know, I think that you look at let's say El Salvador as an example, right? And how much um obviously that is not a perfect example. There's a lot of complications there as well. But the amount of people that are actually using Bitcoin, places where Bitcoin are accepted, um, is actually quite interesting to see and how that country has gotten, you know, safer in a lot of ways as well. And like that's just kind of fascinating to see. Not saying it's gotten safer because of Bitcoin, but just, you know, in general, like seeing the kind of economic climate changing there is quite interesting. Um and ultimately, yeah, if you look at stable coins versus Bitcoin in terms of giving people that are maybe more unbanked tools, uh, you know, both play a role, but ultimately Bitcoin is the actual asset that underlying is going to um, you know, I think that stand the long term because a stable coin is just basically fiat.

SPEAKER_02

It's fiat. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's good though. It's like fiat on your cell phone, which is like I've got other forms of fiat on my cell phone anyway.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I can't.

SPEAKER_02

I do hold some, like I do hold some stable coin like on on my cake wallet, I show people. Um, but I only don't use it for anything, obviously. I just do it to piss off Christine Lagarde. Because in in Europe, in Europe, we they they are super scared of Tether, right? They're super scared of of American stable coins because you know that you know why there's no that's funny, you know why there's no euro stable coin that really works? Why? Because in the time when stable coins were like proliferating in the crypto markets, right? Um there were um negative negative interest rates in Europe.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So there was no there was no business model. Even with like low interest rates, you have some sort of business model doing a stablecoin. But if you have negative interest rates, you're actually paying for building a stable coin. And so no, nobody did that. And it's like it's like this this unintended consequence of of an insane monetary policy um of negative interest rates, um, which you know they don't realize or they don't recognize obviously at the ECB. Yeah, maybe one day they historians can talk about it. The Bitcoiners will talk about it.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_01

I know one thing is interesting too is I feel like they were so big on talking about CBDCs for a long time, and then that conversation has been kind of dampening, it seems, as well.

SPEAKER_02

So I mean we'll see. Yeah, I mean they still want to do the digital euro. Um, it's it's their thing. Uh it's it's it's we have to wait and see. I think Lagarde is out next year. So so once she's out, um I mean she she's gonna like I think she said she's gonna quit earlier so that Macron can influence the next president and not a possible right-wing party.

SPEAKER_00

Fascinating.

SPEAKER_02

Which is also like, but at the same time, they say, but we're not political, you know, we're we're we're totally independent. Whatever, whatever, whatever. We're not here to talk about central banking. Um you can go to the central banking podcast for that. Um, but no, but it's it's it's it's an interesting, it's interesting, like these two paths that we see while we go through centralization and stable like like uh digital euro. It's like some something's gonna happen there. And then in the US, you had they actually banned the idea of a CBDC, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yes, until 2030, I believe. So a few kicked it down a few years. But yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So what what's happening there? Can you can you give us a little bit of like you you're the political person? What's happening on the on the whole American crypto, Bitcoin, stablecoin front?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's it's interesting because obviously um when Trump first came into office as a more like pro-crypto type of president, but then there's been just it's been so messy with a lot of the stuff that he's, you know, World Liberty Fi World Liberty Financial that you know he's launched, and then people didn't do so good, you know, he's always been kind of messy in the crypto space. I don't know if you remember when he launched his own NFT cards and he's just always done all sorts of yeah. And so it's on one hand, you might say, oh, having a slightly more pro Bitcoin president is is good, but then he's been so complicated and messy in his the way he does crypto-related activities that it's I don't know if that's necessarily a total, you know, um pro. But um in terms of the fact that um, you know, now we actually have a new um, I believe it's the SEC chair that's um a little bit more pro Bitcoin. So we've got we're kind of moving a little bit more in that direction. I mean, obviously anything's better than the previous um, you know, people that were in office that were really anti-uh Bitcoin and crypto and really cracking down on things. But um, so it things have gotten more um friendly towards Bitcoin in the US, I would say, definitely from a legislation standpoint. Um, but ultimately I don't know that there's a lot of forward movement on various Bitcoin-related bills. Like it seems like we keep trying to, you know, pass different things. And there there are some good forward movement in terms of certain states like maybe allowing, you know, uh government employees to have their pension in Bitcoin or pay their taxes in Bitcoin. Like so there has been some forward movement, but in terms of mass adoption and big changes, it's still, I'd say, very much trickling.

SPEAKER_02

But from like a cypherpunk perspective, like from the idea that we just, you know, because your your your statement, you know, we should all have the just the right to move our money and move our like save our money the way we want to. 100%. Like that's makes so much sense. Yeah. It's it's something that people don't really think about, you know. You don't you don't think about it until you have problems.

SPEAKER_01

Until you need it, yeah, exactly. Exactly, right?

SPEAKER_02

Like either either it's inflation or you you you get into trouble with the government and then they freeze your accounts or whatever, right? Um you you you don't see that. But but do we even want this old politic political thing on on top of Bitcoin that's happening right now, or do we actually want the government to be opposed to it so we can we can we can build in the dark, so to say?

SPEAKER_01

I mean I think that friendlier legislation towards Bitcoin is not a bad thing in my opinion, because I think that when you have a lot of restrictive uh regulations, then it really limits the amount of innovation that can happen and the access that people can have. Because so, for example, like New York City is one of the strictest in terms of who can operate there, you have to get a special bit license, you've got all of these things you have to do in order to operate in New York. And so people who live in New York don't have as much freedoms to use Bitcoin in different ways, for example, maybe as in a different state because of the local legislations. And so I think that when you have more Bitcoin-friendly legislation, it just kind of opens the door for um Bitcoin-related companies and exchanges and wallets to be able to do more and offer more services. And um so I think that it's a net positive to have friendlier things just to open up more options for people because I I understand what you're saying from more of a cypherpunk perspective, maybe it's better if we kind of build underground and in the dark, but ultimately for everyday people to actually use it, they're going to want things that are built in public and are actually like you know approved by whatever like for everyday people. So um I think that having a multitude of options is probably not bad.

SPEAKER_02

There's also the the the question of like would that not introduce more libertarian ideas into the mainstream, right? Because it's interesting. Ron Paul, I was like in my gold buck days, I read all the Ron Paul books, I followed his his speeches, and he's still he's still there, right? He's still still alive. Oh, I believe so. But his his son has taken over like the the the political side of things. Um but he was always like the outsider, right? And and he he was always like the the 100% opposition, and and and basically you could vote for him, but it was like a lost vote, he would never gain any traction. Yeah um but he had some influence on the political um conversation. Now the whole Bitcoin thing is is is introducing all these like techno techno-cypherpunk ideas, techno-libertarian ideas into the mainstream. Um so that that's positive, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think so. And I think in general, um people are starting to realize, hey, maybe there's been a little bit of a government overstretch, and we're even seeing privacy and more like even things like signal, like more private messaging becoming more popular in the states. And I think that as much as there's a whole segment of people that don't have any idea about some of these, you know, kind of more cypherpunk ideas, um, I do think we're starting to see a segment of the population realizing, oh wow, maybe we've given up too much. And they're starting to kind of veer back towards some of these more privacy and like freedom minded things. But it's it's a slow curve. But I am starting to see, you know, the old like phrase that everyone knows like, oh, you know, kind of like why does privacy matter if you don't have anything to hide? I think people are starting to realize, oh wow. I've kind of just like opened all the doors to my house. And maybe I want to start closing them again a little bit. And maybe even just like the evolution of AI and starting to see wow, if you have this information about me, you could create a, you know, a deep fake video, or you could like people are starting to realize, oh wow, like there's a lot of who I am out in the public now. And um, so I'm hoping we're seeing a shift back towards some of those ideas. Um, I think people are friendlier to them, but we still have a long way to go.

SPEAKER_02

A very long way.

SPEAKER_01

Very long way.

SPEAKER_02

Because at the same time, not only is the government, you know, doing mass surveillance on a scale that we have never seen before, and they can use AI, and now they have the like then you have the whole palantier, Peter Teal, whatever thing that like nobody knows whatever what they're doing anyway. But everybody's I mean, we're all convinced it's it's a little dodgy, right? Right. Um, but and and then and then there's the the like the next thing is like you have Alexa and your smart TV listening to you and the cell phones. So there's so much going on, it's like really hard to to even know where to start. Like who who else outside of the Bitcoiners is even talking about this?

SPEAKER_01

You know, I think that uh that's a good question. Um and there I think that there is some, like there's a whole, I would say, segment of people that are not necessarily into Bitcoin. They are tangentially, but they're a little bit more into privacy and realizing that they want to have less of themselves online and less of their information out there. But that is not a massive part of the population.

SPEAKER_02

Maybe maybe there's also another pocket. There's people who want more privacy, want less government intuition and don't know about Bitcoin.

SPEAKER_01

Or maybe they've heard of it.

SPEAKER_02

But they don't they don't know that that's actually a tool that they should be looking into.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Yeah, that's fair. You know, because there are there's so many tools that exist out there on various levels. But I think that for people that want to just start to kind of dip their toe in the water, you know, Bitcoin is a great piece of that. But then in addition, you know, you can start using things like more end-to-end encrypted messaging. You can start using things like um, you know, like there's more privacy layers on Bitcoin now that's really interesting. And it's just but ultimately, yeah, I think that um making tools that are really, really easy to use that feel like just everyday things but happen to be more encrypted and safer and more private. I think that's really the way to go where it's like, oh, cool, sure, I'll I'll do that. But it's not like they have to be extremely technical. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02

You need to you need to just be able to use it like end-to-end encryption, right? Even WhatsApp is encrypted, right? Um, and of course the EU wants to break that because they want to read all our messages. Um, but but and and why? Because they they they feel like they're losing control a bit. And and but this is goes back to the cyberpunk wars, like the the crypto wars of the 1990s, right? Without the crypto wars in the 1990s, where like a really, really small minority was fighting with the government, we wouldn't even have that right now. So maybe maybe it's it's it's all about the the the intolerant minority and not about the masses getting it.

SPEAKER_01

Maybe interesting.

SPEAKER_02

Maybe we win in the end.

SPEAKER_01

Well, we always win in the end.

SPEAKER_02

No, but is I mean, is there any is there any like with feat and debt and everything else, is the inflation, is there any way you out out of this without more libertarian ideas?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, that's uh that's the what $33 trillion question.

SPEAKER_02

Um What would Ron Swanson do?

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. Yeah, we need we need Ron Swanson on this ASAP.

unknown

That's perfect.

SPEAKER_02

What are you guys doing?

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, so at CakeWallet, uh it's been really exciting. We're actually, I mean, as as you know, um we often are at kind of the forefront of um rolling out new privacy features, especially on Bitcoin. Like we were the first ones to implement silent payments like a year before really many other people were even starting to talk about it.

SPEAKER_02

Um and many, many, like we had Constie here. Many in the Bitcoin world didn't even know, like in the German-speaking Bitcoin world didn't even know what silent payment was before before he explained it, basically. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And that's part of what's amazing about our team. You know, Constie and Seth prof Seth for Privacy, our COO, and like the team is really OG, Cypherpunk, cares about building things right, want is wants to push the envelope in terms of innovation. And so that's been really exciting to see how CakeWallet's been at the forefront of that. But another um really big thing that's happening is we're about to um, well, the team behind CakeWallet is actually about to be launching a whole new product that is really exciting that I think is something that probably should have been built a long time ago. It makes a lot of sense. Um, and so um, yeah, we're excited to be. What is that?

SPEAKER_02

What is that? What is that?

SPEAKER_01

So um it's called Radar, and it's a messaging, it's a private messaging app with Bitcoin payments intermixed. And so you think about right now, if you want to send someone some money on Lightning, you're texting them, you're chatting with them on WhatsApp, whatever it is on Signal, and then you're like, okay, let me um let me go get your address, let me open this app, let me come back, let me double check it, let me copy paste, let me go back and forth, versus just being like, hey, thanks for thanks for grabbing pizza last night. Here's some sats. And just being having a wallet, a non-custodial Bitcoin wallet integrated in with your messaging app. And so, yeah, it's called radar and it combines those two things together, which is really two of the biggest things that you do every day. You talk to people, and then maybe you, you know, what you do with your money, right? And so being able to bring them together in a way that's really easy, that you're not having this clunky experience of going back and forth. It's just it's funny to me because Bitcoin is, you know, the most innovative money on earth. And here we're using it like it's dial-up internet. We're going back and forth, you know. And so um so being able to combine those two things is really exciting, especially because it's built on top of uh signal.

SPEAKER_02

And so that's important.

SPEAKER_01

Very important.

SPEAKER_02

Um I didn't even know that was possible.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, it's open source. So um so yeah, I guess.

SPEAKER_02

Signal is open source. I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01

I believe so.

SPEAKER_02

This is this is a Bitcoin podcast. It's not it's not a software podcast. I don't I don't need like I like that I I know with like Claude I can wipe code shit now, but I don't know what I wanted to wipe code in the first place. So like okay. No, but but um so it's built on top of Signal. That's that that so that I don't have to to convince my my friends outside of Bitcoin, I don't have to convince them to get into into into a new app, is that right?

SPEAKER_01

Correct. And that was a big part of why we chose to go that way. Not just because of how battle-tested the signal encryption process is, um, but also because your contacts are already there. So, like you said, you don't have to go convince your friends to like, hey, can you join this new app? Like you can literally just start messaging them um on radar and they're there already. Um and then the fact that it's a completely non-custodial Bitcoin wallet. So we wanted it to be something that people really could immediately feel safe with. So you've got Signal and then you've got Cake Wallet. Again, um, you know, very well-trusted non-custodial Bitcoin wallet. So we're bringing these two things together um in a way that people are like, oh, okay, that makes sense. I can do that and feel good about it.

SPEAKER_02

So on the radar app, I can I can use that to message people. And if if they are on Signal, they will get my message even without without having the radar app. But if I want to send them any Bitcoin, they need the Radar app or some other Lightning.

SPEAKER_01

I believe so. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um we'll we'll check it out. And of course this is the best. We're just launching, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know, I know, I know, I know. But this this will this will, you know, we'll publish this podcast after you guys launched the app so people can check it out. You know, you can also now check out if it if it even, you know, if if von der Leyen even allowed it on the European App Store. We've we've got some problems now, and I think like with with with Apple features that are not coming to Europe because of this and that regulation. So this is gonna be an issue or like a like a topic. But but but we'll see, we'll see, we'll check it out. Um I think that's great. I think it's very necessary. I think it's something that that that has been missing. I I know that you can do this with like uh the Feddy stuff, right? Um Jeff Booth showed it to me in in Prague. We did an interview there. Um and and but that seems like something that you you have to get people to to to to join you on that specific app.

SPEAKER_01

Which we all know is very difficult to do. People have so many apps they already use, and getting someone to try to sign up for a whole nother app, they're like, oh I like do I yeah, so that's a huge part of it, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

But it worked it worked a little with Signal. Yeah, I mean I can I can even like obviously I still have to use WhatsApp because that's big in Europe and and the family chat is on WhatsApp, so I miss all the good memes, right?

SPEAKER_00

Um yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_02

But but um but with with with Signal it did work a little bit, you know. Um and even Telegram, which is a little bit of a mess, right? Yeah. But I mean we all have to be there, we all have to talk to each other. Okay, so so and cake wallet, you introduced um lightning payments not that long ago. Like, when we unterwegs Bitcoin nutzen, wollen wir for all an sichere control and maximale Privatsphäre und zwar ohne Kompromisse. Dafür ist die CakeWallet perfekt. And jetzt wird sie noch besser, dank der direkten Anbindung an deine Bitbox Hardware Wallet. Und auch das leidige Thema Wartezeit ist Geschichte bei CakeWallet ist das Lightingnetzwerk jetzt. Dabei, deine Zahlungen gehen blitzschnell und kosten dich kaum etwas. CakeWallet ist wirklich unkompliziert, der Fokus liegt klar auf deiner Privatsphäre, von Silent Payments bis zu Funktionen wie Tor und eigenen Nodes. Du behälst immer das Steuer in der Hand, alles kann, nichts muss. CakeWallet ist Open Source und läuft auf jedem deiner Geräte, egal ob iOS, Android, Mac oder PC. Bitcoin und Stablecoins sind dabei und du kannst sie direkt in der App tauschen. CakeWallet macht es einfach, Bitcoin ganz selbstverständlich und maximal privat in deinen Alltag zu holen. Und das Beste, sie ist komplett kostenlos. Schau einfach mal rein und probiere es aus. Du findest alles auf cakewallet.com. Leute, ihr wisst, wenn es um die Sicherheit meiner Bitcoin geht, da mache ich keine Kompromisse. Für die Verwahrung nutze ich selbst die Bitbox. Und für das physische Restrisiko setze ich auf BitSurance, den offiziellen Versicherungspartner von Bitbox. Die Versicherung ist direkt in der App integriert und ergänzt die technische Sicherheit sinnvoll um den Schutz vor Risiken wie Raub oder Brand, Dinge, die Hardware alleine eben nicht abdecken kann. Ich habe das Produkt selbst im Einsatz, behalte jederzeit die volle Kontrolle über meine Keys, während Bitsurance das Restrisiko übernehmt. Wenn ihr euer Sicherheitskonzept vervollständigen wollt, auf bitance.de erhaltet ihr mit dem Code WASBITCOIN bringt 5% Rabatt auf eure Prämie. Ich kann euch das ans Herz legen. Ich kenne das Gefühl. Man nutzt Bitcoin und Krypto und nach kurzer Zeit ist der Überblick über Käufe, Verkäufe und Wallets einfach weg. Und dann kommt die Steuererklärung und du weißt gar nicht, wo du anfangen sollst. Aber das muss nicht sein. CoinTracking nimmt dir diesen Stress einfach ab. Über 2 Millionen Nutzer vertrauen der Plattform seit 2012. Du verbindest einfach deine Wallets und Börsen und CoinTracking zeigt dir sofort dein komplettes Portfolio mit Gewinnen und Verlusten. Egal ob einfache Trades, NFTs, Staking oder DeFi. Und den Steuerbericht für dein Land erstellt es dir quasi auf Knopfdruck. Einfach verbinden, importieren, fertig. Und weil ich weiß, dass viele von euch CoinTracking ohnehin ausprobieren wollen, mit meinem Link gibt es 10% Rabatt auf die Gebühren. Und wenn du mit Bitcoin zahlst, was bei CoinTracking natürlich geht, nochmal 5% extra oben drauf.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so it's been fairly recent. It's been um and that's been incredible. Um I I don't know about you. I've used a lot of the different, you know, lightning options, and I think it's the easiest to set up. Like I actually made a video the other day um showing how to set it up saying less than a minute, and I think it took me 30 seconds to create a lightning address and show everyone how to use it. And you know, it it's it's really quite easy. And at these conferences, you know, we mentioned we were just in Prague not too long ago. It's been amazing to me to see how many people have actually never used Lightning. So they come to our booth and they're like, oh, you know, usually we're um, you know, doing some sort of giveaway, we're doing something kind of fun. And so they're like, oh, let me sign up for Lightning so that I can, you know, be part of this. And they've never used it before. So we're helping like hundreds of people set up their very first Lightning wallet um every day at these conferences. And and that's actually been pretty exciting to see because they're like, oh, that was easy. And I think in their minds they thought maybe it was this complicated thing they would have to try to figure out.

SPEAKER_02

So I mean Lightning is the default payment layer on Bitcoin. Yeah. Um, it's not. I mean, there may there are many reasons why Bitcoin is not being used as a widespread medium of exchange. There's regulation, there is adoption in general, um, and then there is there is uh the the volatility, you know. That's you know, they always talk about the volatility, but it's true. And I talked about this in in my in my speech in in Prague as well. We're still going through the monetization process, and the first step is store of value. And as long as we and and that can take years, that can take decades. But at the same time, we do have to build the the payment infrastructure. Lightning is also a privacy uh layer on top of Bitcoin. And actually, when I was in I was in El Salvador for for five weeks last year, it's not like everybody uses Bitcoin, right? Have you been there?

SPEAKER_01

Not yet, but I I'm hoping to go um in the next year. We'll see.

SPEAKER_02

So it's not like everybody uses Bitcoin, right? But if you want to go like in a touristy spot, if you want to buy souvenirs, you know, they have these baskets that they do that's it's amazing, right? So you go there, you want to buy a basket, you know. I realized that first of all, people are amazing. They're so friendly because because they haven't had they haven't had any tourism, so they're not cynical about it, you know. They're like honest, they're like gener, uh they're really, really excited to see you, yeah that you're there. Um and and there was always you know one younger person that would have like the Chivo wallet, and it's also crap, it is crap, but it works, it works, and you can use Bitcoin to pay for your souvenirs, and it's fine. And they can convert it immediately to dollars, which is what they want anyway, what they need. It's not like people have lots of money to save, right?

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

Um, and and and it's great to see. And the like the feeling, and that's what I want to say, the feeling of just using Bitcoin without any like thoughts about regulation or taxes or whatever, that's that's really powerful.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I I agree with you there. There's a lot of uh, like you said, the taxes and the regulations, like right now, that's definitely so you know, earlier we talked about do we think um Bitcoin-friendly policies are good or not, right? And I think that's kind of again coming back to, I would say yes, because the more you've got all of these complications, it adds to people's minds, like, oh, I don't know. Like, you know, I think that even um if there was, I know there's been talk about this, at least in the US, like if you can have a certain dollar value that if it's below. Yeah, exactly. Because then you you people shouldn't, if they want to pay for their coffee or souvenirs with Bitcoin, they shouldn't have to be thinking about, oh, did I just trigger a taxable event? Like that's uh that's a big barrier.

SPEAKER_02

It's and and again, again, I have to-I'm sorry I have to I have to beat that horse, but it's even worse, far worse in EU. Yeah, because with the new anti-man money laundering thing, um you're not allowed to do um any form of payments um anonymously anymore. Right? So so they are they are shutting this down completely because they want total control. Um it's not gonna end well. I'm sorry, but like like we are like we are going into a world where we have to to do to know about these tools in order to survive the crash, basically. Because they are just gonna get it's just gonna get worse and worse. I don't I don't know. Like I hope there's hope.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But you know what they said when Obama was elected, it's like hope is not a strategy.

unknown

That's fair.

SPEAKER_01

But yeah, I mean, obviously, um I don't fully understand all the ins and outs of everything that's happening in Europe, but it doesn't make me scared. Right, yeah. No, but like it makes me a little bit scared for you guys. Like the way the path that they're going down. I'm like, wow, it's just getting stricter and stricter and stricter, and uh it's uh like siphoning off a lot of these, like the innovation we talked about earlier and like being able to have some of these tools. And so, you know, maybe maybe you guys will end up in more of that cypherpunk building in the dark here, you know.

SPEAKER_02

It's it is it is scary. Especially especially if you're from Eastern Europe, you should know about this. The Western Europeans they're just you know walking into into into the the the abyss without like happily. Um but the Eastern Europeans should get it, and they do, they do. The Poles get it, the Czechs get it, they do. But it I don't know if they if I I I don't want to scare people, I want to be positive. Yeah, and I think technology will help us in the long run. Yeah. Um I also have this this this theory that um there's like there's you know the Americans always have their strategy, right? And then there's like this one guy in the State Department just calls up the Europeans and tells them to do the exact opposite, so that there's like a bigger delta between the US and the Europeans. That's my theory. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01

I mean he might be onto something there. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

And I didn't want to uh I actually didn't want to be negative about Obama, I have to say. You know, he follows me on Twitter.

SPEAKER_00

He does?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, he does. If you want to message, like if you want to get a cake wallet message out to Obama, you know he the thing is that's a wild flux, it is it is, isn't it? It is I didn't even I don't even use Twitter and I and I also didn't follow back.

SPEAKER_00

That that's your bigger flex, you didn't follow back.

SPEAKER_02

I know Twitter always tells me to follow him back. So he follows like half a million people, it's not that special. But it's weird. It's weird because he has like 120 million followers, 150 million followers. And every time I see him on like like TV or like YouTube, it feels so different. Like it feels like time traveling to the insanity of the Trump era, right? Like you said everything's so messy. Yes, he's doing things that are positive for Bitcoin, but it's such a and it's it's all out in the open, the profiteering, it's like this whole forth-turning thing. Everything gets so messy. I mean, that uh what he's doing with with World Liberty Financial, they're doing their own stable coin. They are trying to get other countries like Pakistan to adopt their stablecoin.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_02

That's what they're doing. Um, and and and this is gonna be very interesting. But with with with Obama, he gets Bitcoin. He had he had a thing in 2019, I think, where he said Bitcoin, that's like having a Swiss bank account in everybody's pocket. And then he said, Do we really want that? You know, because you know he always he already has enough Swiss bank accounts, I reckon. Uh but and then I'm like, yes, we do.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's interesting. I forgot that he said that. Yeah, that's super interesting.

SPEAKER_02

He gets it. Yeah. I don't I mean, I don't think he's like very in like very um but I I don't I don't think that like you said before, the the two-party system, right? Even with the with the Biden administration, even Gary Gensler, Gary Gens like uh got it. He still gets it. That the whole I think he like the crypto industry outside of Bitcoin didn't like him because he differentiated between Bitcoin and crypto. Um but but Gary Gainsley understood Bitcoin perfectly.

SPEAKER_01

Well he was very um anti though. Like, I mean he might have understood it, but he did everything he could to kind of bring as much limiting regulation to that as possible, it seemed.

SPEAKER_02

So I'm not sure. I mean I mean he did wanted to differentiate between Bitcoin and crypto, and and I I don't know, I don't know. Like I it maybe it's too far away and too long ago, and it doesn't really matter. It's just that this this nagging feeling that the whole you know ETF, Treasury companies, Wall Street, um it's it's just it's moving away. You can now in invest in Bitcoin so easily without even touching Bitcoin at all, right?

SPEAKER_01

So interesting, yeah, with all the BlackRock ETFs and everything. Yeah, it's but that that's been interesting because there's been a lot more interest from TradFi, as you said, you know, in institutions now that there are more, you know, TradFi um vehicles available with the ETFs. But yeah, you're right, that is getting us even further away from the kind of original ethos of Bitcoin. It is it's more, I think, that people that get involved in ETFs, it's not that they really believe in financial sovereignty, it's more that they view it as a volatile asset that perhaps they can play with and trade and exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So when it comes to sovereignty, and like let's like you know wrap this up here. What what what do you think are the most important things that we should look at, like tools that we should use? Obviously cake wallet and obviously radar, but like like for real, like because I think sovereignty, even though it's it's like a concept that is very I don't know, it's not is it sexy? I don't know if it's very sexy. It's it's it's a little bit like it gets a bad rap, right? Um sometimes like in the in the media and like from politicians, right? People who who who who want their sovereignty, they they're like crazy nutcases, right? With the don't tread on me flag. Um so so that's my question how do we normalize this and how do we how do we um go forward from here?

SPEAKER_01

You know, it's interesting you say that. Um because I do think that the mainstream it depends on how you position it. Like, yeah, if you're out there with a, you know, like an anarchist, this or that, and a don't tread on me flag, like yeah, you're gonna look a little bit more a certain way in terms of people's eyes. But I think the the power that you can get from just saying, I wanna have control over my life, the decisions that I make, how I move through the world. Um, and you can set up your life in a more sovereign way too. And to me, that is a really um empowered and kind of beautiful thing. When you see someone that's like, oh, I've set up my life to be this way, here's the different tools that I use. Here's that. And it's it's actually inspiring. And I think that people see that and they're like, oh wow, that's actually really cool because of the confidence that comes from that. Because when you're like, well, I'm kind of, you know, this, that, or will this change and this, like it's a little bit more of a victim mindset, I think, versus someone who takes control over their life. And, you know, there are so many tools that are available that are getting easier to use. Um, and there's a lot of different aspects of your life that you can improve. But I think if we're looking at, you know, how do we kind of change that narrative? I think that I actually think that we can make that cool again. Because it's not about looking extreme. It's about that kind of empowered, hey, I'm not a victim. I actually want to direct the course of my life. And here's how I'm doing it. And I think that's inspiring. And I think people want that, and just showing people how and being like, hey, you could actually live your life like this too. And just not positioning it in this kind of extreme way, like, oh, I don't like the government or this or that. But just like, no, I'm a sovereign, powerful being, and this is how I live my life.

SPEAKER_02

I think that's actually why Bitcoin as a tool has been so powerful, and that's why um we should be skeptical about ETFs and treasury companies and whatnot. Because even if you go, if you get into Bitcoin only to get rich, right? Which which which doesn't work.

SPEAKER_00

It isn't doing so well for us right now.

SPEAKER_02

No, it's not uh it's it's it's we you know doing these jokes in a bear market at least it's funny, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you do it in a bull market, you you sound like a douchebag. Um but if you if you get into Bitcoin just because of the price, right? Um in the old world, at least you had to touch real Bitcoin, meaning you had to take the step into a more self-sovereign territory. Right. Right? There's no asset manager and no bank taking care of this for you. So so basically you once you did take that step uh without even thinking about it, you just upgrade it. Right? And that's why I think it's so powerful, and that's why I think there's like this this whole like community thing as well. And and if you if you don't do this, if you don't buy your actual sets and and you know use your actual uh Bitcoin wallets and you buy use actual hardware wallets and use the lightning network, if you don't do this at all, um you're missing out on on the the the step for your for your life, basically, for that this what you just talked about. And that's why this is dangerous. It's it's a chance to get more liquidity in, yes. Right, but it's also dangerous to the whole idea of Bitcoin. And I do think we have to be very clear on this.

SPEAKER_01

And and that's where I really do believe in the mission of um building really good self-custodial tools. You know, it's why I joined CakeWallet, why um, you know, I'm so excited about radar, it's making these tools actually feel easy to use. And so that when someone is wanting to potentially, like you said, like go down that path of learning how to hold their own Bitcoin and they're not just using these financial vehicles that are regulated or you know, that are in the traditional markets. Um, you know, I think that making sure that it's as easy as possible and there's as fewer barriers to entry and the technology is always evolving, like even, you know, the way that you save your seed phrase and different things, like there's tools that are coming out that can make that even more consumer friendly and easier. And so I think that there's um there's a lot of innovation happening, and I'm excited to continue to see that so that hopefully we can kind of lower that barrier and have a more mainstream person feel comfortable actually custodying their own funds and taking that important step. Because you're right, this uh, you know, more uh traditional uh finance approach to things, it's still, you know, it's in a brokerage account that could be frozen and it's centralized and all of these things. So we're not, you know, circumventing any of the problems of the financial system when you're using an ETF. You're just getting exposure to Bitcoin, but you're not actually owning an asset versus owning the rights to an asset is very different.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, I mean that's the that's the one thing. But if you like I am not against ETFs, don't get me wrong. Even for the for the Bitcoiner, I think that if if you if you want to diversify, especially your like how you hold it, yeah, um absolutely, absolutely. I hold ETFs, no question, like ETPs, because it again, in Europe, you're not allowed to have the ETF, right? But uh why do I do that? Because because um first of all, you know, I'm a public person, I don't have so much anyway, everybody knows that. I invest most in my into my business. But but so this is is a different level of security, right? And also security from my for myself, because I could lose my seed phrase and I can lose this, that. Um but I am a quote unquote real bitcoiner, and I do have um taken the step of self-sovereign money, right? But if you never do that, yeah, then you then you don't upgrade your own you know level of consciousness, basically, right? And that's and that's the the danger here. So so I think that that there should be like uh and obviously it cannot be a law because we are libertarians, but there should be a law that people like the first bitcoin you buy, you have to buy the real stuff, and then you then you can get then you can get ETFs or ETPs.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we we can't make laws like that. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_02

Wouldn't that be funny? We just that would be funny. Like that's a new that forget about the Clarity Act, you know, buy real Bitcoin Act. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, that's funny.

SPEAKER_02

Wonderful, Leah. Um, this has been this has been a lot of fun. I think we have taught we've covered important stuff. Um it's also fun because I didn't even know about RADA before you came here. Uh it's it's it sounds like we this is all perfectly timed, but and it is, but that is by chance. Uh it's a very exciting product. Um, so how how do we find you know cake wallet's product, but also your stuff? How do we find you in on the internet?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, perfect. Yeah, thank you. So um yeah, cakewallet.com, you know, handles are at cake wallet pretty much everywhere. And you can find information on on radar there as well. Um and then um I know I probably shouldn't say this on a podcast, so my Twitter handle is GroGon Crypto, so don't judge me for that.

SPEAKER_00

You know you can change that, right?

SPEAKER_01

I know I've thought I've thought about it. We'll see. But uh and so but yeah, if you uh you'll find me on the cake wallet page too. I'm on there all the time. So that's an easy way to connect as well.

SPEAKER_02

So awesome. Thank you very much for stepping by in our humble little studio in Vienna. Um, have a great time um staying here, and I hope to see you soon.

SPEAKER_01

Wonderful. Thank you again so much for having me. It's been amazing to be here.

SPEAKER_02

So thank you.com. Vielen Dank auch an die absoluten Legenden von euch, die das Ganze über Fountain hören oder andere Value for Value Apps und immer wieder auch Satz rüber schicken. Dafür bin ich mega dankbar, das ist mega motivierend. Besucht auch unbedingt meine Sponsoren, unsere Sponsoren, die uns unterstützen und auch Codes zur Verfügung stellen, wie zum Beispiel Coinfinity, wie 21 Energy, wie Bitbox, wo ihr mit was Bitcoin bringt, günstiger einkaufen könnt. Und die Liste an Vorteilen, die euch dieser Code bringt, die ganze, die könnt ihr auch finden auf was Bitcoin bringt.com. Schaut euch da unbedingt die Vorteile an. Vielen Dank fürs Dabeisein. Bis zum nächsten Mal. Euer Nico.